Matthew Mark Luke and John are Old Testiment books!!!

[Issachar]

Re: Matthew Mark Luke and John are Old Testiment books!!!

Continuing from post #60

Just wanted to add a bit more scripture here that I believe has some relevance to the discussion:

Romans 3:
19 Now we know that what things soever the law says, it says to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Also, if you could help me understand a certain aspect of your belief [Lewis] .. according to your belief that we are in the church age and the age of law is past (if you're not saying that, please clarify for me. These matters are already hard to understand and discuss.), what do you do with the fact that the law is still around and is a schoolmaster, leading folk to Christ, after which, we are no longer under a schoolmaster .. the law.

Galatians 3:
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

The Law is a standard by which we can know that we are sinners and lost and in need of salvation. Once we enter into salvation, we are no longer under the law.

Issachar

[Guest]

Re: Matthew Mark Luke and John are Old Testiment books!!!

Context, WHO were these letters written too-- and WHEN ??? and WHY ???

Romans 3:
19 Now we know that what things soever the law says, it says to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

there shall no flesh be justified in his sight

....... exactly, thus the continual need for blood offerings for old testiment man to cover his sins--just like the blood on the door posts covered the sins of the Hebrews in Egypt so the Death Angel would pass-over!!!

Hebrews was written to the HEBREWS to show them they needed Jesus as the FINAL Passover lamb to forever forgive or ""Justify"" them before GOD... The Old testiment man was REQUIRED to keep the Law and do yearly BLOOD sacrifices to atone for His sin...
Abraham was saved by the ACTIONS of His Faith!!! if he had been a wishey/washey "believer" we would never have heard of him...Even though he occasionally made really bad choices, like David, Abraham was a man after GODs heart!!! In the Old Testiment the Holy Spirit came upon a person for a time then left him... Saul & Sampson for example!!!
Btw ...Who are the guests at Jesus wedding??? (Matthew22) and the 10 virgins waiting at the fathers house??? The old testament saints !!!

Justify // sanctify // glorify

When saved we are Justified, holy in GODs sight....... Then through a lifetime of study & faithfulness we become more like Jesus, the gradual process of Santification .... When we stand before Jesus, we shall be Glorified, being like Jesus

Also called STANDING and STATE.... Our standing is saved, justified... out state is the closeness of our walk with Jesus which varies as we live our lives closer to -- or further away from -- the guidance of the Holy Spirit...


no yearly blood sacrifices needed in the Church age!!!
Galations3

we are no longer under the law.

(((Except for Jesus generation when this gospel was written ))) (((context))) we of the church age never were under the law of Moses... that had been done away with by Jesus' passover blood sacrifice!!!
No one could come to GOD by the Mosiac law for the last 2000 years!!!

[Issachar]

Re: Matthew Mark Luke and John are Old Testiment books!!!

re. post 62

Ok .. I think we might be getting somewhere now Lewis.

Forgive me and correct me if I'm not getting this right. What I think you are saying (in a nut shell):

Old Testament: Your idea of "faith plus works" is that under the old covenant, they had to have faith in God just like we do, but they also had to follow the Law.

New Testament: Faith only.

IF those are correct understandings, even though I disagree to an extent, at least I am understanding what you're saying .. if the above is correct. Let me know.

You posted a video tonight here (post #1), and I like it. I don't care for a couple points they made, but the gist of it I agree with. There are instructions/commands that we are given in the new testament, that if we are truly saved, we'll be obeying them. Of course, not all at once, but there should be progress. I'm wondering if you found that video while searching out info for this thread? Just wonderin' .. doesn't matter.

And here is what I've been attempting to say and show with scripture ..

Wait. I wanted to post a passage before saying that.

Hebrews 10:
3 But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year.
4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

11 And every priest stand daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

The sacrifices served as a reminder, but could not take away their sin.

Hebrews 10:
5 Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, "Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me;
6 in burnt offerings and sin offerings you have taken no pleasure.

v.5-6 are referring back to Psalms 40:6 .. maybe through 8.

Psalms 40:
6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

Ok, back to what I have been attempting to say ..

The Old Testament saints, under the Old Covenant, were made righteous, by their faith. Their faith was shown to be real by their obedience. It does no good for one to say that they believe God, but don't follow through with what He says to do. But that is the same under the new covenant. Your video I linked to above makes a good case for that with scripture.

Now, for example ..

Leviticus 17:
11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that makes an atonement for the soul.

"Atonement" is a covering, not a removal. The animal sacrifices were showing the awfulness of sin and the death it brought/brings and also pointed ahead to the One perfect sacrifice that could and has, taken away our sin. It was their believing God that saved them. Their obedience was the result. It's truly a good thing that the "works" were not required in conjunction with their faith because their "obedience" level was quite poor as is all of us, compared to being perfect.

So to recap, I think you're saying "faith plus works" for old testament believers and "faith" only for new testament believers and I'm saying both are "faith only" and the obedience to God's commands is the evidence of the faith being true.

Does that, agree or not, sum it up so far?

I would like to thank you Lewis for starting all this and especially continuing in it with patience. I am finding it challenging in the sense that I'm really having to dig into my Bible to affirm what I believe and I always appreciate doing that. I hope we can continue this. I hope you can see where I'm coming from scripturally, even if you don't fully agree. But the above Hebrews 10 verses and Psalms 40 verses have to be at least interesting to you in light of this discussion, no?

Issachar

[Guest]

Re: Matthew Mark Luke and John are Old Testiment books!!!

works" were not required in conjunction with their faith

I must disagree here... under the law of Moses, their Justification before GOD required blood sacrifices...and keeping the Law...
under the New Covenant, this had been done away with by Jesus so Justification is by faith alone... When we walk with Jesus His abideing Hoily Spirit guides us to righteousness....something the old testiment man seldom had--and then only temporarially!!!

Btw, before, you mentioned Saul later Paul keeping the Law and persecuting Christians.... This was during the Church age so he did not have Justification by keeping the Law because the world was now under the Church age where Justification was grace through faith in Jesus-alone!!!

So to recap, I think you're saying "faith plus works" for old testament believers and "faith" only for new testament believers and I'm saying both are "faith only" and the obedience to God's commands is the evidence of the faith being true.

see above!!

One of the "proofs of the pudding" is that only the Church are the Bride of Jesus Rev 21;9... ALL the righteous people from other ages ARE NOT!!!
only the Church lives in eternity in the New Jerusalem, all the others live in kingdoms on the Earth Rev 21;24... All the others are the guests at the Brides wedding!!!


once again, it is difficult to understand all this without understanding dispensationism... otherwise you try to fit all people from all ages into one salvation / justification model and that just does not fit!!!

[Guest]

Re: Matthew Mark Luke and John are Old Testiment books!!!

Matt 11:13

For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

Luke 16:16

The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

(both refer to John the baptizer)

[Guest]

Re: Matthew Mark Luke and John are Old Testiment books!!!

Yes you just reminded me of

Mat_11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
Also Luke 7

meaning I think that the least worthy member of the Church (as the Bride of Christ) is far greater than the greatest of the Old Testiment prophets !!!

Enduring Word .com commentary says of this:

]b. He who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he: Though John was great, he was not born again under the New Covenant. This is because he lived and died before the completion of Jesus’ work at the cross and empty tomb. Therefore, he did not enjoy the benefits of the New Covenant (1 Corinthians 11:25 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] , 2 Corinthians 3:6 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] , Hebrews 8:6-13 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] ).

i. “As we may say, as a rule, that the darkest day is lighter than the brightest night; so John, though first of his own order, is behind the last of the new or Gospel order. The least in the Gospel stands on higher ground than the greatest under the law.” (Spurgeon)

[Issachar]

Re: Matthew Mark Luke and John are Old Testiment books!!!

Smaller bites ..

So, what say ye concerning a couple verses I quoted earlier in this thread? There are many similar throughout scripture ..

Psalms 40:
6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

Romans 4:
5 But to him that works not, but believeth on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 
6 Even as David also describes the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputes righteousness without works, 
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Was David not during the "dispensation of Law?"

Issachar

[Guest]

Re: Matthew Mark Luke and John are Old Testiment books!!!

Firstly, Context; Romans was written during the Church Age to the Gentiles who no longer needed to follow GODs law

Yes David was a man after GODs own heart... He believed GOD and his belief like Abraham was accounted for righteousness...
What is not mentioned here is that Through belief, they followed GODs law requiring blood sacrifices... Just like as Romans 4 says,today we recieve GODs grace by believing,,, it is the saving power of Faith... Both old testiment and new testiment required belief / faith

The Unconditional Davidic Covenant
yes David had a special covenant with God..... (((Pastor Peter reminded me of this !!! )))
Isaiah_55:3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.
Acts_13:34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.


The Davidic Covenant refers to God’s promises to David through Nathan the
prophet and is found in 2 Samuel 7 (& Ps 89) and later summarized in
1 Chronicles 17:11-14
and 2 Chronicles 6:16
. This is an unconditional covenant made between God and David
through which God promises David and Israel that the Messiah (Jesus Christ) would
come from the lineage of David and the tribe of Judah and would establish a kingdom
that would endure forever (
2 Samuel 7:10-13
). The Davidic Covenant is unconditional because God does not place
any conditions of obedience upon its fulfillment. The surety
of the promises made rests solely on God’s faithfulness and does not depend at all on
David or Israel’s obedience.

Psalm 40:6

burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required

.The sacrifices were not required of David as he already had an unconditional covenant with GOD....... However David DID those sacrifices anyway as he was a man after GOD's own heart !!!


Abraham believed GOD and:
Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

& He offered blood sacrifices for the sin of his house:
Gen 22:13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.

Heb_5:1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:

before the LAW:
Gen_31:54 Then Jacob offered sacrifice upon the mount, and called his brethren to eat bread: and they did eat bread, and tarried all night in the mount.
Exo_3:18 And they shall hearken to thy voice: and thou shalt come, thou and the elders of Israel, unto the king of Egypt, and ye shall say unto him, The LORD God of the Hebrews hath met with us: and now let us go, we beseech thee, three days' journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the LORD our God.
Exo_5:3 And they said, The God of the Hebrews hath met with us: let us go, we pray thee, three days' journey into the desert, and sacrifice unto the LORD our God; lest he fall upon us with pestilence, or with the sword.
Exo_5:8 And the tale of the bricks, which they did make heretofore, ye shall lay upon them; ye shall not diminish ought thereof: for they be idle; therefore they cry, saying, Let us go and sacrifice to our God.
Exo_5:17 But he said, Ye are idle, ye are idle: therefore ye say, Let us go and do sacrifice to the LORD.

[Guest]

Re: Matthew Mark Luke and John are Old Testiment books!!!

There are various Christan groups / churches that teach things that are not supported by the Whole Council of GOD...
Some say that you can loose your salvation...
Some say you have to keep the Mosaic feasts, and or Saturday worship...
Some say you need to keep taking communion to forgive your sins...
Some say that Mary or the saints or priest can forgive your sins...
Some say that Infant Baptism / joining a church forgives a lifetime of sins...
Some say that salvation is the same throughout the ages...

and many many other things...
The bible is written in such a way that it takes a lifetime of study to come to grips with the whole council of GOD...Even then we fall short of complete understanding...

Reminds me of a verse the mockers often quote... the verse says that the laver (ceremonial tub) before the temple was, say 3 feet wide and had a circumfrence of 9 feet...... which seems to ignore Pi,, x3.1416....
Thing is they forget that like your coffee mug, the Laver's rim had a thickness !!!
So the outside diameter was 3feet, while the inside of the pots circumfrence was 9 feet !!! Its the little things that matter

And yes, Dispensationism is true, you cant loose your salvation,neither Baptisn nor communion nor Mary nor church membership will save you !!!

[Issachar]

Re: Matthew Mark Luke and John are Old Testiment books!!!

I have NEVER rabbit trailed before ... well, maybe once.

So, just one comment (or more ) on that pi matter.

Also an interesting article on 1 Kings 7:23 and 2 Chronicles 4:2.


1 Kings 7:
23 Then he made the sea of cast metal. It was round, ten cubits from brim to brim, and five cubits high, and a line of thirty cubits measured its circumference.

pi is 3.1416 ...

circumference = diameter X pi

diameter given: 10 cubits

10 X pi = 31.416 ..

But the Bible says, 30 cubits.

And the Bible, as always, is correct.

NOT rounding, but using "significant figures" .. 10 has one significant figure. A product can't have more significant figures than the least number of significant figures in the numbers being multiplied. Therefore, technically speaking, 30 is the technically accurate answer.

Those looking for Biblical fault are at fault for using this.

Issachar

[Issachar]

Re: Matthew Mark Luke and John are Old Testiment books!!!

re. post 69

There are various Christan groups / churches that teach things that are not supported by the Whole Council of GOD...

That would be all of them (groups). To say otherwise is to say that one or more is perfect.

There is a BIG difference; a world of difference, between an erroneous teaching and a false teaching. On the surface one might think, "What's the difference? They're both wrong." True, they are. But unless a man is Perfect (i.e. Jesus), he will teach something, sometime, that is in error. Conversely, a "false teacher" will intentionally teach heresy. Also, a true teacher, when realizing an error, will readily admit to having been in error. A false teacher will always seek to 'self justify' what he says in error.


2 John 1:
7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

2 Peter 2:
1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privately shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Acts 20:
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.


Issachar

[Guest]

Re: Matthew Mark Luke and John are Old Testiment books!!!

Guess what Iss ???
We agree on something
but dont tell anyone else or it might spoil the Fun !!!!

[Issachar]

Re: Matthew Mark Luke and John are Old Testiment books!!!

Actually brother , we agree on most things.

Issachar

[Guest]

Re: Matthew Mark Luke and John are Old Testiment books!!!

1Co_9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
Eph_1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph_3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
Col_1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

dispensation is also translated economy or administration... of course -- imho--we see examples of several dispensations in history...
however, it seems this is where it happens to be mentioned precisely by its chosen name...

[Issachar]

Re: Matthew Mark Luke and John are Old Testiment books!!!

Still thinking on this as I'm able.

For now, just something for thought. (I don't know if I agree with this article yet, but it makes some interesting points.) I don't normally go to Rapture Ready but a search ended me up there. I don't have a problem with the site as far as I know, it's just a time/stewardship issue.

EXCERPT

One Gospel Or Two?

Proponents of the two Gospel view point out that the Apostles, especially Peter, stressed the idea of repentance as a necessary preliminary to becoming a believer, while Paul did not. They say this difference proves that Peter’s gospel was different from Paul’s. But the problem lies with our misunderstanding of the word repent. It means to change one’s mind. Peter’s messages in the first part of Acts were primarily to Jews who had been raised to believe that salvation came from obeying the Law. They needed to change their minds and realize that keeping the Law could never save them.

“Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38) Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12)

The endless list of names who couldn’t save them included their own. Unless they changed their minds and abandoned their quest for self-righteousness in favor of a righteousness imputed to them by faith, they would never see the Kingdom.

But Gentiles had no such pre-conceptions. They weren’t bound up in the Law, and hadn’t been taught the incorrect idea that they could save themselves by the way they behaved. Many of them had no idea about salvation at all, so once they were taught this they had only to accept what the Lord offered, the free gift of pardon. So there aren’t two gospels, just two audiences. Jesus was right. The only work God requires of us, Jew or gentile, is to believe in the One He sent. (John 6:28-29)

Once again, the problem lies not with God’s word, but with man’s understanding.

source

Issachar