Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Matthew Mark Luke and John are Old Testiment books!!!

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Re: Matthew Mark Luke and John are Old Testiment books!!!

    Good morning Shibboleth.

    I think everyone here believes that the Holy Spirit, being God, is always present, everywhere, which would, of course, mean here too.

    But Jesus, referring to the Holy Spirit as the "Comforter", won't be sent to us unless He goes first, to the Father. Post #11 merely touches on that. Since you have brought this up and it seems even more relevant to the discussion now, I'm going to say a bit more on that; but first, let's see what God has to say, of course.

    John 14 starts with talk of hearts being troubled, apparently because of the conversation in John 13.

    [ESV]

    John 13:
    33
    Little children, yet a little while I am with you. You will seek me, and just as I said to the Jews, so now I also say to you, 'Where I am going you cannot come.'
    34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.
    35 By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."
    36 Simon Peter said to him, "Lord, where are you going?" Jesus answered him, "Where I am going you cannot follow me now, but you will follow afterward."
    37 Peter said to him, "Lord, why can I not follow you now? I will lay down my life for you."
    38 Jesus answered, "Will you lay down your life for me? Truly, truly, I say to you, the rooster will not crow till you have denied me three times.

    So the disciples are troubled by a few things (at least). That Jesus is talking about leaving them and going somewhere and that Peter will deny Him and (read all of ch.13) that one of them will betray Him. Plus there is given them, a new commandment - v.34.

    John 14:
    1
    "Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me.
    2 In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?
    3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.
    4 And you know the way to where I am going."
    5 Thomas said to him, "Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?"
    6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
    7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him."
    8 Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us."
    9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
    10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me?

    Please see whole chapter. Also note, I use the KJV 99% of the time but am currently using the ESV. That is only because I think it is HSB (post #27) that once mentioned a preference for the ESV. Where the KJV uses the term "Comforter", the ESV uses "Helper." I believe that "Comforter" is the better translation of the Greek word used; parakletos (Strongs G3875). In fact, I am taking the liberty to place "Comforter" into the ESV.

    16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever,
    17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

    I'm using only my Bible (e-sword) and prayer in this reply so please bare with my not being a theologian.

    I have found in the past and always, what you (Shibboleth) mentioned; Psalms 51:11, fascinating and a blessing.

    I'd like to quote the whole of ch.51 .. but . . . we live in something for now, called time.

    KJV
    Psalms 51:
    10
    Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 
    11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy Holy Spirit from me. (The KJV translators apparently did not use upper case 'H' and 'S' . . . but I do, so I changed that in 'Holy Spirit'.)
    12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. 
    13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

    ESV
    Psalms 51:
    10
    Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me.
    11 Cast me not away from your presence, and take not your Holy Spirit from me.
    12 Restore to me the joy of your salvation, and uphold me with a willing spirit.
    13 Then I will teach transgressors your ways, and sinners will return to you.

    Now there is MUCH discussion about what v.11 means, among Christians. I don't join that much .. I just read it and believe it, because that is what it says; "take not your Holy Spirit from me."

    Back to John 14:

    v.16 it's interesting to note Jesus' words, "the Father . . . will give you another Comforter. Another. So ... what? Jesus is the "Comforter" while on earth but when He leaves/left, the Holy Spirit will be sent as the Comforter? That's what it says, "another."
    v.17 .. speaking of the Holy Spirit, "You know Him (present tense), for He dwells with you (present tense) and will be (future tense?) in you.
    Just noting is all ..

    20 In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.

    This v.20 is one of many reasons that ch. 14 is one of my favorites (although, the favorites list is getting incredibly long the older I get. ). Consider it along with Galatians 3:16,29.

    26 But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

    So there we have it from the Word of God . . . the Comforter (another - v.16) and the Holy Spirit are one and the same.

    and then sort of referring back to ch. 13 at the start of this post concerning fear and a troubled heart:

    27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid.
    28 You heard me say to you, 'I am going away, and I will come to you.' If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.
    29 And now I have told you before it takes place, so that when it does take place you may believe.

    Now, I think it is obvious that I am not a "dispensationalist" per se, such as our brother, Lewis (and looking up past posts, our sister Sandylion) and others, but there is much of it I agree with. But that is true for me, of many "theologies" out there, none of which I ever even heard of until after I had been saved for very near 10 years (when someone in a conversation said, "Oh, you're an Arminian." I said, "A what??" ) and most of which I haven't heard of until being a member here (going on 18 years) and interacting with folks from many backgrounds. Of many of them, I believe some of and not some of. No, I don't have a "list", but I/we do have the Word and the Holy Spirit that will lead us into all truth - v.26 above.

    Issachar
    The church is on Earth to save souls from a lost world, not to save the world from lost souls.

    Man learns about history, not from history. To learn from history requires wisdom. Cut off from God, he has none, so history repeats; no new thing under the sun.

    I saw ten thousand talkers whose tongues were all broken - dylan

    Psalms 122:8 For my brethren and companions' sakes, I will now say, Peace be within thee.

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: Matthew Mark Luke and John are Old Testiment books!!!

      There is much discussion within Christiandom about the Holy Spirit and the believers under the Old Covenant.

      Post #30:
      Originally posted by Lewis
      Under the old covenant as in Davids & Sampson the Holy Spirit only ""came upon"" a person for a time and a season...
      then left that person!!! Scary thought !!!
      So most old testimant people had no Holy Spirit to guide or comfort them !!!
      You mention the Holy Spirit being "upon" rather than "in." But the Old Covenant gives us very little information about this. But within that little bit, there are verses that say, "within" and "upon."

      There are some others, but here is one, in the gospel of Luke, but prior to Jesus' death (start of New Covenant - see post 11).

      Luke 1:
      57
      Now Elisabeth's full time came that she should be delivered; and she brought forth a son. 
      58 And her neighbours and her cousins heard how the Lord had shewed great mercy upon her; and they rejoiced with her. 
      59 And it came to pass, that on the eighth day they came to circumcise the child; and they called him Zacharias, after the name of his father. 
      60 And his mother answered and said, Not so; but he shall be called John. 
      61 And they said unto her, There is none of thy kindred that is called by this name. 
      62 And they made signs to his father, how he would have him called. 
      63 And he asked for a writing table, and wrote, saying, His name is John. And they marvelled all. 
      64 And his mouth was opened immediately, and his tongue loosed, and he spake, and praised God. 
      65 And fear came on all that dwelt round about them: and all these sayings were noised abroad throughout all the hill country of Judaea. 
      66 And all they that heard them laid them up in their hearts, saying, What manner of child shall this be! And the hand of the Lord was with him. 
      67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying, . . .

      It's interesting to do a search of the word "comfort" in the Old Covenant.

      As I was attempting to say earlier, there are dispensationalists, calvinists, arminians, and others .. and there are some things within each that I believe are scriptural and some not, but the nice thing (for me) is not adhering to any of them. I have friends that do and I see it here some too (also friends ) and when they come across scripture passages that seem, in some way, opposed to, or at least, different from, their particular theology, they have to find a way to "explain" it. (often with, "what that really means ) But without the strict adherence, you can see something like that and just pray, Lord, open thou mine eyes .. (Psalms 119:18). If I get to "see" a particular thing while still "in the world" (but not "of the world" - John 17), cool. If not, I can wait.

      Psalms 40:
      1
      I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.

      As amazing as are some of the insights with which our Lord blessed folks like Bullinger, Scofield, Augustine, Baxter, Polycarp, Wesley, Whitefield and many, many others, they are still just men. If everything that they spoke (commentary) was from God, there would be total agreement between them all. They'd have written the same things. In fact, it would be scripture, which we know it is not.

      Just some out loud thinking ..

      Issachar
      The church is on Earth to save souls from a lost world, not to save the world from lost souls.

      Man learns about history, not from history. To learn from history requires wisdom. Cut off from God, he has none, so history repeats; no new thing under the sun.

      I saw ten thousand talkers whose tongues were all broken - dylan

      Psalms 122:8 For my brethren and companions' sakes, I will now say, Peace be within thee.

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: Matthew Mark Luke and John are Old Testiment books!!!

        Imho you cannot use new testament verses to refer to the Holy Spirit in the Old testiment/old covenant....

        Jdg_16:20 And she said, The Philistines be upon thee, Samson. And he awoke out of his sleep, and said, I will go out as at other times before, and shake myself. And he wist not that the LORD( Holy Spirit) was departed from him.

        1Sa_16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD ( Holy Spirit) departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
        1Sa_18:12 And Saul was afraid of David, because the LORD ( Holy Spirit) was with him, and was departed from Saul.

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: Matthew Mark Luke and John are Old Testiment books!!!

          Originally posted by Lewis
          Imho you cannot use new testament verses to refer to the Holy Spirit in the Old testiment/old covenant....
          Ok ... there is only one Holy Spirit (Don't worry, I know you believe that brother). But, where did I do that? Look at the title of the thread.

          Issachar
          The church is on Earth to save souls from a lost world, not to save the world from lost souls.

          Man learns about history, not from history. To learn from history requires wisdom. Cut off from God, he has none, so history repeats; no new thing under the sun.

          I saw ten thousand talkers whose tongues were all broken - dylan

          Psalms 122:8 For my brethren and companions' sakes, I will now say, Peace be within thee.

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Matthew Mark Luke and John are Old Testiment books!!!

            Exodus 31:
            1
            And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 
            2 See, I have called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah: 
            3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship, 
            4 To devise cunning works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass, 
            5 And in cutting of stones, to set them, and in carving of timber, to work in all manner of workmanship.

            Just considering v.3

            Issachar
            The church is on Earth to save souls from a lost world, not to save the world from lost souls.

            Man learns about history, not from history. To learn from history requires wisdom. Cut off from God, he has none, so history repeats; no new thing under the sun.

            I saw ten thousand talkers whose tongues were all broken - dylan

            Psalms 122:8 For my brethren and companions' sakes, I will now say, Peace be within thee.

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Matthew Mark Luke and John are Old Testiment books!!!

              Then, there is this ..

              John 7:
              37
              In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 
              38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 
              39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) 

              Issachar
              The church is on Earth to save souls from a lost world, not to save the world from lost souls.

              Man learns about history, not from history. To learn from history requires wisdom. Cut off from God, he has none, so history repeats; no new thing under the sun.

              I saw ten thousand talkers whose tongues were all broken - dylan

              Psalms 122:8 For my brethren and companions' sakes, I will now say, Peace be within thee.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Matthew Mark Luke and John are Old Testiment books!!!

                (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
                yes, the books were written during the Church age !!! Jesus words were spoken during the age of the Law
                It gets stranger the more you consider it...

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Matthew Mark Luke and John are Old Testiment books!!!

                  re. post 15

                  Originally posted by Lewis
                  Imho in the final dispensation Jesus will be there for all to see sitting on the throne so they can't have "grace by faith"...
                  Instead they have grace perhaps by acceptance and righteousness ??? Note that every nation MUST go up to Jerusalem yearly to worship otherwise they will have no rain and other "stuff" will happen...Zech 14:17
                  I kind of know what you're saying here, but ..

                  When Jesus was on the earth about 2,000 years ago and very obviously the Son of God, doing mighty signs and wonders, especially forgiving sins which only God can do and they recognized by His words that He made Himself equal to God, they still rejected Him though they could "see" Him. Any Jews, including Jewish leaders, that believed, still had to accept that He is the Messiah; the Christ, by faith.

                  In the millennium, though Jesus is very obviously present, any belief in Him that occurs, will still be by faith; faith that He is Christ; God.

                  No?

                  I'm thinking this morning, that when God blinded eyes to Jesus being the Christ, it was to make it so they couldn't see that He was, by the natural eye; the natural mind. They would still have to believe He was who He said He was, by faith because with their natural eyes, they could not "see." This was maybe God's way of assuring that any acceptance of Him was is still by faith, though He was tangibly present.

                  John 12:
                  36
                  While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them. 
                  37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: 
                  38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? 
                  39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 
                  40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. 
                  41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him. 
                  42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue: 
                  43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God. 

                  Issachar
                  The church is on Earth to save souls from a lost world, not to save the world from lost souls.

                  Man learns about history, not from history. To learn from history requires wisdom. Cut off from God, he has none, so history repeats; no new thing under the sun.

                  I saw ten thousand talkers whose tongues were all broken - dylan

                  Psalms 122:8 For my brethren and companions' sakes, I will now say, Peace be within thee.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Matthew Mark Luke and John are Old Testiment books!!!

                    And good morning to you as well sir:

                    Originally posted by Issachar View Post
                    ...
                    Now, I think it is obvious that I am not a "dispensationalist" per se, such as our brother, Lewis (and looking up past posts, our sister Sandylion) and others, but there is much of it I agree with.
                    Issachar
                    With that I agree. Neither am I, per se, but there is much of it I agree with also.

                    Originally posted by lewisb View Post
                    Imho you cannot use new testament verses to refer to the Holy Spirit in the Old testiment/old covenant....
                    Ok, this is confusing to me. The context of the thread is that “Matthew Mark Luke and John are Old Testiment books”; so, how is this using “New Testament” to refer to the Holy Spirit in the “Old Testament”?

                    But, to dig further into the New Testament: 2 Peter 1:21 (NIV)

                    21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

                    So, even deeper into the New Testament, the Holy Spirit was there for the prophets. I don't see the difference.

                    Originally posted by lewisb View Post
                    yes, the books were written during the Church age !!! Jesus words were spoken during the age of the Law

                    It gets stranger the more you consider it...
                    As I thought more on this, I was drawn to Galatians 3. For example:

                    5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

                    This is probably going way of topic, but the law was justification by flesh, the law was the guardian – Again Galatians 3:

                    24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith.
                    25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

                    As I understand Galatians 3:6 above, Abraham believed God, through faith, and it was credited to him a righteousness. As Galatians 3 also points out, that was 430 years before the law.

                    So, the Holy Spirit has always been here, available to those who believe God, who had faith. And the testaments of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John point to the fulfillment of the promises made in the older books.

                    So, this thread leaves me with the conundrum as to whether there is an Old Testament and a New Testament, or simply the “Word” of God. Yes, Christ was the fulfillment of everything promised in the Old Testament, and yes, we are saved by our belief in him, and yes that changed our path to God.

                    1 John 3:23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.

                    Still, I see the Holy Spirit as having always been there, available to anyone who believed God and whom He credited with righteousness. There is a lot of good discussion in all of this. But as a simple man, all the intellectual theories can sometime get confusing. Therefore, I’ll just end with this:

                    Galatians 3: 26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith,
                    27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
                    28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
                    29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

                    Hopefully, I didn’t take this to far off topic.
                    Thanks for the discussion, it’s been enlightening.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Matthew Mark Luke and John are Old Testiment books!!!

                      As I was writing my post above, I just saw this. Just wanted you to know I appreciate your posting on this. I couldn't agree more.

                      Originally posted by Issachar View Post
                      re. post 15



                      I kind of know what you're saying here, but ..

                      When Jesus was on the earth about 2,000 years ago and very obviously the Son of God, doing mighty signs and wonders, especially forgiving sins which only God can do and they recognized by His words that He made Himself equal to God, they still rejected Him though they could "see" Him. Any Jews, including Jewish leaders, that believed, still had to accept that He is the Messiah; the Christ, by faith.

                      In the millennium, though Jesus is very obviously present, any belief in Him that occurs, will still be by faith; faith that He is Christ; God.

                      No?

                      I'm thinking this morning, that when God blinded eyes to Jesus being the Christ, it was to make it so they couldn't see that He was, by the natural eye; the natural mind. They would still have to believe He was who He said He was, by faith because with their natural eyes, they could not "see." This was maybe God's way of assuring that any acceptance of Him was is still by faith, though He was tangibly present.

                      John 12:
                      36
                      While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them. 
                      37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: 
                      38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? 
                      39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 
                      40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. 
                      41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him. 
                      42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue: 
                      43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God. 

                      Issachar

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Matthew Mark Luke and John are Old Testiment books!!!

                        Giving post 39 a lot of thought. But at 2AM I'll not start a post on it now. Probably not ready to yet anyway.

                        But it's good. I wanted to bring more of Galatians into this. Thanks Shibboleth.

                        Issachar
                        The church is on Earth to save souls from a lost world, not to save the world from lost souls.

                        Man learns about history, not from history. To learn from history requires wisdom. Cut off from God, he has none, so history repeats; no new thing under the sun.

                        I saw ten thousand talkers whose tongues were all broken - dylan

                        Psalms 122:8 For my brethren and companions' sakes, I will now say, Peace be within thee.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Matthew Mark Luke and John are Old Testiment books!!!

                          coming upon // coming within... same thing in the old covenant...but not the same thing as Eternal "indwelling" in the Church age...

                          one Word yes, but seven dispensations (some say only four) without Dispensations it is really hard (imho)
                          to come to grasp with the whole subject (Bible)... Its like trying to nail down Jello

                          I really suggest Clarence Larkin's book "Dispensational truth" Lots of really awesome charts!!!



                          the mountain peaks of prophecy only 8 minutes



                          About Dispensations by Pastor Robert Breaker

                          Last edited by lewisb; 04-10-2017, 12:13 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Matthew Mark Luke and John are Old Testiment books!!!

                            re. post 39

                            Originally posted by Shibboleth
                            . . . I see the Holy Spirit as having always been there, available to anyone who believed God and whom He credited with righteousness. There is a lot of good discussion in all of this. But as a simple man, all the intellectual theories can sometime get confusing. Therefore, I’ll just end with this:

                            Galatians 3: 26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith,
                            27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
                            28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
                            29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
                            "But as a simple man, all the intellectual theories can sometime get confusing."

                            Yes.

                            I was glad to see you quoted, among more, Galatians 3:29. For many years I've been very intrigued by much in God's Word, but one of the "top five" ( ) is this:

                            Keeping in mind how there is often discussion among us mortals, whether something is plural or singular, masculine or feminine, etc. or etc. But God, as part of His Word (i.e. not added by man as commentary), wanting to make sure we understood that a particular word is singular and not plural, parenthetically included just that in v.16 below:

                            Galatians 3:
                            16
                            Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

                            Reading that and skipping the parenthetical part for a moment:

                            Galatians 3:
                            16
                            Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. . . . to thy seed, which is Christ.

                            then in conjunction with that, what you quoted above:

                            29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

                            Then I think of:

                            John 14:
                            10
                            Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? . . .
                            11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: . . .

                            Just, perhaps ??, a bit of a rabbit trail. But not totally.

                            Issachar
                            The church is on Earth to save souls from a lost world, not to save the world from lost souls.

                            Man learns about history, not from history. To learn from history requires wisdom. Cut off from God, he has none, so history repeats; no new thing under the sun.

                            I saw ten thousand talkers whose tongues were all broken - dylan

                            Psalms 122:8 For my brethren and companions' sakes, I will now say, Peace be within thee.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: Matthew Mark Luke and John are Old Testiment books!!!

                              re. post #15

                              Does

                              Originally posted by Lewis
                              Note that as in the Old Testiment these Millennial saints are the Servants of GOD while the Church are the Sons of GOD !!!
                              go with

                              Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
                              eternal inheritance. --the Church!!!
                              Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
                              Appear to who? The Church !!!
                              Yes, indeed he is talking about the Church!!! Not about what will occur in the time after the Church age !!!
                              ?

                              If yes, I'd like to reply to that.


                              Also, earlier in post 15:

                              Originally posted by Lewis
                              Even in another garden of Eden Jesus servants will have to use a "rod of iron" to keep order!!!Rev 19:15...
                              Revelation 19:
                              11
                              And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 
                              12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 
                              13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 
                              14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 
                              15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 
                              16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

                              It seems very clear to me, that it is Jesus, the KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS that is ruling with a rod of iron in v.15 in the above context.

                              Preliminary comment concerning above question:

                              First:

                              Luke 3:
                              23
                               And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

                              . . . .

                              38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

                              After a long geneology (vv.23-38) showing who all is the son of whom, Adam is listed as "the son of God." I think we agree ?? that he is listed as such because rather than having human parents, he was a direct creation of God and that all direct creations of God are "the sons of God." All who are saved, are sons of God because being saved makes us "new creations" and that new creation that we are, is created by God. The old man is dead.

                              Romans 6:
                              6
                              Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 
                              7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

                              2 Corinthians 5:
                              14
                              For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 
                              15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. 
                              16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 
                              17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 
                              18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 
                              19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 
                              20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

                              Romans 8:
                              14
                              For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 
                              15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 
                              16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 
                              17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

                              John 1:
                              12
                              But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 
                              13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 
                              14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 
                              15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. 
                              16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

                              Now probably (forgive me if I'm being presumptive) you will see most, if not all of the above scriptures as pertaining to the "church" (Pentecost to rapture). But I contend that starting with Genesis 3:15 (beginning), the first recorded prophecy in scripture, and considering Revelation 13:8 (ending) and including passages about, for example, Abraham believing God (no works involved) (middle) being accounted to him as righteousness, that mankind has always, is and will be saved through faith .. and always by the grace of God.

                              Genesis 3:
                              14
                              And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 
                              15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

                              Revelation 13:
                              8
                              And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

                              I hope you have time to read carefully, all of these scriptures; yet I am leaving out so many I could post ..

                              Romans 4:
                              1
                               What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 
                              2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 
                              3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 
                              4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 
                              5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 
                              6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 
                              7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 
                              8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. 
                              9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 
                              10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 
                              11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 
                              12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 
                              13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 
                              14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 
                              15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 
                              16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, 
                              17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. 
                              18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. 
                              19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb: 
                              20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; 
                              21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 
                              22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. 
                              23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 
                              24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 
                              25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

                              Issachar
                              The church is on Earth to save souls from a lost world, not to save the world from lost souls.

                              Man learns about history, not from history. To learn from history requires wisdom. Cut off from God, he has none, so history repeats; no new thing under the sun.

                              I saw ten thousand talkers whose tongues were all broken - dylan

                              Psalms 122:8 For my brethren and companions' sakes, I will now say, Peace be within thee.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Matthew Mark Luke and John are Old Testiment books!!!

                                In all previous eras, salvation was by faith plus works see
                                Hab_2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.
                                Much different than the new testiment merely living by faith alone!!! His faith meaning faith plus works!!!
                                A suttle but important difference...
                                Abraham ---Dispensation of GODs promise ,,, Abraham was saved by his works of faith by doing the sacrifices GOD required just like Habakkuk under the Law....

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X