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  • #16
    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    Dear PlumBob et al. I have been far away from my computer the last week so have missed some of the great activity at this board. I am slowly catching up. You asked for my own thoughts so here they are (at least a few of them) I see a period of some calm coming over Israel as Abbas tries to rein in the radicals and build on his election mandate. It won't be total peace as Hamas etc will still do some dirty work, but at least some calm will be appreciated. The world will try their very best to support Abbas, as will Sharon who wants to cut a deal. The USA and Europe will lean on Israel to offer basically the deal that Arafat turned down- basically the whole west bank with a divided Jerusalem as their capital; the Americans because they need to be seen in the arab world as even handed, and to get the muslims off their backs. The Europeans don't have a lot of military muscle but they sure have lots of economic muscle. At the rate the EU is expanding, soon you will need to be pretty darn strong economically to think you could somehow ignore the threat of European sanctions.

    OK so now we have everybody on board for a settlement (except for the Orthodox Jews in Israel who believe in the literalness of Ezekiel 36). But how does the settlement get implemented? A large percentage of IDF personnel have already said they would refuse any order to forcefully uproot Jewish settlers, and the order has not even been struck yet. It will not be Jews dragging out Jews. That would lead to civil war. I believe there will be a "hook in the jaws" to drag some coalition into Israel to implement this dirty work. In my mind I see this as the perfect arrangement for God to then show Himself holy before the nations by smashing this force. So who could it be?

    During the cold war it was popular to think of Russia as the "evil atheistic empire" that God would judge some day. This was a big part behind the Russia=MaGog theory. We have heard some recent rumblings from the Russian bear that realizes its days of glory are behind it. Could it lead some coalition of the willing version 3 into Israel. I doubt that Israel would want vast numbers of Russian troops on site along with a large representation of Muslims without a fight. But it is possible. However I don't think the USA will allow a major Russian incursion into the Middle East when the supply of oil has become so critical to western economies (Russia is actually a net exporter of oil) We will see shortly what is to unfold.

    Please watch out for another possibility. That involves a large international force with both western as well as muslim representation. It would be led by the USA with a large commitment of ground troops- perhaps many of the folks who are already in the region nearby in Iraq. That would nicely keep a major presence for USA in the area, as well as denying that to others (eg Russia or Europe) I think the heavy lifting will indeed be American (as it often is!!)

    This scenario makes a good deal of sense without appealing to Bible prophecy. I ask you to please pick it apart. But then read Ezekiel 36 again. God will not,IMHO, allow the mountains of Israel to be uprooted of people He Himself is bringing back from the nations. So there is a fork in the road. If you are a replacement theology believer (most Catholics and a large chunk of Protestants) then all of this appeal to Dry Bones and restored Israel in a literal sense is so much foolishness. But if you believe that the covenant God made with the Jews is still in effect regarding the Land, then look out. I believe strongly that whoever enters Israel in large military force, regardless of the pretense, will be setting the world up for Shock and Awe like we have never seen it. The reason I said "whatever pretense" is because the government of Israel may itself be an accomplice!!!! You will have noted form my other postings that I now believe the MaGog "invasion" is not an invasion at all, but rather a "deployment". Hebrew is such an INCREDIBLE language, far more subtle and interesting than English, French etc.

    I have rambled on here. In conclusion I say: If you see a large military force starting deployment in Israel and it happens to be American RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!!! It is happens to be Russian, European or somebody else, then hold onto your seat for an incredible ride. What amazes me is the withering away of strong, clear evangelical Christian support for a literal birthright Land covenant. It was there and wildly celebrated in 1967 when God gave the Jews the area (even though Israel was happy to stay out of the west bank to keep Jordan out of the war) and even though the Jews have not settled it in large numbers. God is not finished with Israel. Like a loving Mother Eagle as parent looking out for the goslings/eaglets? the nest is about to get stirred up a bit.

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    • #17
      Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

      Thanks HSB for this post and the followups from everyone,I have gained alot of new insight from this info and new understanding.I knew that Jerusalem was important but was not aware of the importance of the Jewish settlements until this post.

      kennygg

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      • #18
        Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

        Dear HSB

        I am particularly interested in your insights concerning events in Israel, considering your love for Israel, which we so passionately share. I turned to Ezekiel 36, and highlight a few sections of it to which you refer, to underline how it fits the present situation.

        "Also, thou son of man, prophesy unto the mountains of Israel, and say, Ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the LORD: Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because the enemy hath said against you, Aha, even the ancient high places are ours in possession: Therefore prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because they have made you desolate, and swallowed you up on every side, that ye might be a possession unto the residue of the heathen, and ye are taken up in the lips of talkers, and are an infamy of the people: Therefore, ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord GOD; Thus saith the Lord GOD to the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, to the desolate wastes, and to the cities that are forsaken, which became a prey and derision to the residue of the heathen that are round about; Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Surely in the fire of my jealousy have I spoken against the residue of the heathen, and against all Idumea, which have appointed my land into their possession with the joy of all their heart, with despiteful minds, to cast it out for a prey. Prophesy therefore concerning the land of Israel, and say unto the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I have spoken in my jealousy and in my fury, because ye have borne the shame of the heathen: Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I have lifted up mine hand, Surely the heathen that are about you, they shall bear their shame. But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to my people of Israel; for they are at hand to come. For, behold, I am for you, and I will turn unto you, and ye shall be tilled and sown: And I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, even all of it: and the cities shall be inhabited, and the wastes shall be builded: And I will multiply upon you man and beast; and they shall increase and bring fruit: and I will settle you after your old estates, and will do better unto you than at your beginnings: and ye shall know that I am the LORD. Yea, I will cause men to walk upon you, even my people Israel; and they shall possess thee, and thou shalt be their inheritance, and thou shalt no more henceforth bereave them of men. Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because they say unto you, Thou land devourest up men, and hast bereaved thy nations; Therefore thou shalt devour men no more, neither bereave thy nations any more, saith the Lord GOD. Neither will I cause men to hear in thee the shame of the heathen any more, neither shalt thou bear the reproach of the people any more, neither shalt thou cause thy nations to fall any more, saith the Lord GOD."

        Certainly the Palestinians can boast of taking over Jewish “high places,” or locations of significant religious events like Hebron. Also, Israelis have been “swallowed up” in killings, such as suicide bombings on buses, which had the objective of chasing them and possessing their land. I note too where God threatens “the residue of the people,” and “all Idumea,” which is a good description of the Palestinian mix today, with the word “Idumea” zeroing in on to their link with the descendants of Esau. I was struck too about the term “the infamy of the people,” and compares it today’s increasing habit of holding “the settlers,” up to scorn. Then there is that section about “my jealousy” and “my fury” of the Lord, which will incline Him to setup a roadblock on the highly touted “roadmap,” which the nations have been loudly chirping about. Somebody is going to be blown away, and I hope it isn’t us.

        I note HSB’s hint of who the invasion force of Gog might be. He seems to acknowledge that a Palestinian state will be set up, but seems to say that it will be short lived, when he hints that we will NOT have to “put away our books (prophetic I assume) for another 50 years,” which I am assuming he does not expect. If he is right, then that would mean that such a state would last only as long as a flash in a frying pan, and will be fully as explosive too!

        I am fascinated by HSB’s question of who might be the ones to implement the Palestinian state, and who will physically move the settlers from their homes. If we see elements of the nations—even without Iran (Persia)—which are mentioned in Ezekiel 38: 5-6 (African states; Libya; Western Europeans; Turks) comprise such a “peace” force, then look out!! And if America sends in a contingent to make peace, and the poor settlers do indeed call out to God to take vengeance against those who would manhandle their women and children, then a tsunami of fire (“fried” as PlumBob puts it) might indeed engulf our “coast lands.” (Tsunamis do cross oceans you know). The Jewish-hating Moslems got their share when the largest Moslem nation got theirs five weeks ago; and God might just have one or two more reserved for any nation that insists in lifting up a finger against His People.

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        • #19
          Back to the original thought..

          In my study of Ez 38 and 39 I read in my Bible, along with everybody else, about invasion, attack etc. The Hebrew actually just says that the military force "shows up". It is an ASSUMPTION that this involves an attack. Afterall no resistance is offered.

          ************************************************** *******

          Going back to this paragraph that was in the original post, I see more than a military force showing up in Ez. 38. Verse 10 says " You will say "I will invade a land of unwalled villages; I will attack a peaceful and unsuspecting people...all of them living without gates and bars. Verse18 says... When Gog attacks the land of Israel, my hot anger will be aroused.
          This does not sound like a peace keeping force to me. How are these verses to be understood in the original Hebrew?

          Thanks, gail
          A Moment Gone Is Lost Forever
          A Moment In Prayer Will Last Forever

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          • #20
            Re: Back to the original thought..

            Originally posted by gail
            Going back to this paragraph that was in the original post, I see more than a military force showing up in Ez. 38. Verse 10 says " You will say "I will invade a land of unwalled villages; I will attack a peaceful and unsuspecting people...all of them living without gates and bars. Verse18 says... When Gog attacks the land of Israel, my hot anger will be aroused.
            This does not sound like a peace keeping force to me. How are these verses to be understood in the original Hebrew?
            It depends on your translation. Neither the RSV nor King Jimmy use the words "invade" or "attack". From King James,EZE 38:11 "say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates, "

            This "new" scenario about the makeup of the "peacekeeping" force fascinates me. I read that Turkey and the US are not on great speaking terms anymore, and Turkey is cozing up to Syria. Its relations with Israel are on the downturn also. Turkey is one of the Gog-Magog players. As is Lybia, and by some interpretations, Ethiopia. Personally, I cannot imagine Israel allowing Lybians or Turks for that matter on their soil unless they are part of a UN force. And Ethiopia? Why would they have any involvement in Israel's affairs unless they are part of the UN force?

            Do people still view Eze 38 as the 2nd Seal Judgement? It may not be. With this new scenario, I think there is a possibility we may still be around to witness it (being the pre-tribbers that we are).

            WLNF

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            • #21
              Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

              Be careful when reading English translations of Hebrew. Often the translator chooses a convenient word that makes sense but is not necessarily accurate. The Hebrew simply says that Gog and the military force "shows up". perhaps a more accurate English word would involve "deployment". That could mean "invasion" but does not necessarily mean that. Simply a large military force arrives in Israel. Many people have imagined that the horde of Russia will come riding in on horses (a lot of translations say that horses are involved) The Hebrew uses a word that is also translated "crane"..yes that is right -the bird. Now how could a crane and a horse be accurate translations of the same concept...simply because the Hebrew root word means "quick flight". Up until recently soldiers in "quick flight" must have been riding horses but realize a Jumbo Jet or a troop helicopter are EQUALLY CREDIBLE translations. What a marvelous language Hebrew is!!!

              People have speculated that many of the nations mentioned happen to be Muslim and look for a coaliton with Russia. Perhaps this will materialize. But remember that Desert Storm had a coalition involving many similar Muslim countries joining the USA to push Iraq out of Kuwait. I believe that the Muslim nations will be a token force that will represent "balance" in the Gog expedition, and satisfy the Palestinian Arab sentiments, just like having American troops will satisfy the Jewish side. It is interesting that Egypt, Jordan and Syria are not mentioned. Could it be that these nations are not allowed to participate since they have been recent belligerents with Israel in 1967, 1973 etc.

              Why does God's righteous anger mount up?? Simply because this whole ensemble is attempting to implement SOMETHING DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSED TO HIS STATED WILL, as expressed in Ezekiel 36. Thanks Zion Gene for posting those wonderful verses. God is not rescuing Israel from an invasion that overwhelms her defences, rather God is making a STATEMENT ABOUT HIS HOLINESS TO THE NATIONS OF THE EARTH! We would all do well to take Him at His word.

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              • #22
                Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                Regarding the Second Seal, personally I believe this destruction of Gog and the associated havoc that results is in fact the second seal. If you study Revelation 6 and compare it to Zechariah 6 there is an interesting parallel. The order for three of the horses is the same (Red, black and pale) but the white horse in Revelation comes first, yet in Zechariah it comes third. I think there is no contradiction here, even though the horses are describing similar things. Let me explain. I think the white horse in Reveation will represent a movement out of Europe that affects Israel- I suspect it will be ECONOMIC leverage, which they are already amassing with 25 countries etc. The white horse of Revelation then is peaceful conquest (economic) and that nicely sums up what Europe is about these days.

                The red horse is warfare and pertains to the mountains of Israel where Gog and his miltary force get anihilated. Bloodshed then spreads to other locales (="the coastlands"). The black horse speaks to economic collapse and famine, while the pale horse speaks to plague (=ebola, aids etc). It is fascinating to me that Zechariah even tells you the direction of these things- the pale horse ride is associated with the south initially (=Africa is already awash in plague as we know) The white and black horse come from the other direction (I think this means Europe and the West primarily) The red horse has no direction because it does its thing initially right in Israel.

                If this scenario is correct look for an economic treaty involving Israel with the EU, followed by a "deployment" by Gog to implement a Palestinian state, followed by the direct intervention of God Almighty through earthquake destruction of Gog, followed by economic grief and widespread famine, followed by global pandemics arising out of Africa. Well there you have it- the first 4 seals of Revelation could realistically be fulfilled in the next couple of years easily.

                But why the different order for the white horse? I think because the Jews believe the white horse represents the coming of Messiah. They will embrace one who "comes in his own name". Read about his attributes elsewhere in Zechariah (the "other" Shepherd). You see the Jews have a view of Zechariah that applies to them directly. They will look for the rider on the white horse immediately after the red and black horses ride out. They believe that the Gog/MaGog war is what the Christians call Armageddon (but it isn't, just a warm up act) and they will rush to embrace the wrong person as Messiah, to their eventual dismay when he claims to be God Himself and enters a newly rebuilt Temple. What an incredible irony that the man who actually WAS God on earth was rejected. The good news is that they eventually will understand their error and mourn "as for a firstborn". In this explanation, note that Revelation takes a broader view IMHO, showing that the white horse of peaceful economic rides out even before Gog arrives in Israel. Are you aware that the EU has a seven year budget cycle and the this new cylcle takes effect January 1, 2007. If Israel is given direct access to European markets through the European Neighborhood Policy (EPN) that THEY HAVE ALREADY SIGNED, look for the provisons to be annulled in 3.5 years (just at the time of mid cycle review) Talk about pressure!!

                Well I've drifted quite a ways from the original thread...the reference to the second seal got me going. How much of this we will see personally is up to God's plan. I would be happy to miss the whole sordid mess!

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                • #23
                  Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                  HSB what do you think about Egypt, Jordan and Syria being defeated in a pre
                  Gog/MaGog war ,hence the reason they are not mentioned in the Gog/MaGog war ?

                  kennygg

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                    Personally I think the Gog/MaGog piece is right on the doorstep, and associated with the Palestinian state implementation. Egypt, Syria and Jordan were the key arab states that were at war with Israel multiple times in the last half century. I could easily see that their participation in a multinational peace force would not be appropriate or allowed by Israel. But the other muslim nations further afield might be allowed to send token contributions to a military force tasked with buffering the two states, then implementing the terms of the deal. That's my 2 shekels worth.

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                    • #25
                      Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                      The thing which disturbs me far above what Gog or Magog may do, or what the US or the UN or the EU is planning vis-a-vis Israel, is what Israel itself IS doing. Here we have this nation, for which we believers in Christ wish the best, deliberately ignoring nearly every warning in scripture of how it should relate to the nations--especially the ones against making covenants with other folks in the land and depending upon foreigners for protection. I am nearly tempted to say--if it were not for the godly remnant--"You will get what you deserve, and deserve what you get." Don't our Israeli friends consult their own book? It is all very embarrassing! We know that this will happen, but when we see Israel heading step by step toward what the bible calls a covenant of death, it is very galling and bitter to behold!

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                      • #26
                        Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                        Dear ZionGene: The country of Israel is split down the middle. Many of the Jews are secular, especially those living along the coastal plain (old Philistine territory). Yet over 100,000 folks just showed up this week to protest what Sharon and company are doing. I have found that the people living in the settlement areas are very concerned, God fearing and Bible believing Jews who are appalled at what their ethnic relatives are doing.

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                        • #27
                          Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                          Originally posted by ZionGene
                          The thing which disturbs me far above what Gog or Magog may do, or what the US or the UN or the EU is planning vis-a-vis Israel, is what Israel itself IS doing. Here we have this nation, for which we believers in Christ wish the best, deliberately ignoring nearly every warning in scripture of how it should relate to the nations--especially the ones against making covenants with other folks in the land and depending upon foreigners for protection. I am nearly tempted to say--if it were not for the godly remnant--"You will get what you deserve, and deserve what you get." Don't our Israeli friends consult their own book? It is all very embarrassing! We know that this will happen, but when we see Israel heading step by step toward what the bible calls a covenant of death, it is very galling and bitter to behold!
                          Zion Gene, I thought you might need to be reminded that Israel has NEVER been able to remember who her God is! Hasn't she always played the harlot with the nations of the world? Whatever is happening in Israel now is not surprising to anyone who knows her history, but especially to God, who has known this would happen from the beginning. It's a good idea to read Hosea again to remind ourselves of Israel's infidelity in the past and the future. This is normal behaviour for her.
                          Sandi
                          For the eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to show Himself strong on behalf of those whose heart is loyal to Him. 2Chron 16:9

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                          • #28
                            Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                            Yes, HSB and Sandi...I know, I know; but still it hurts!

                            Now to get back to reality.

                            I notice where our newly appointed Secretary of State said that the only way to get peace in the MiddleEast is for the Palestinians to have a state with "contiguous borders." Well, Ariel, that is the very thing which you claimed to bypass and delay with your "disengagement" manuver. Condi also said that Israel will have to give up more than Gaza and Samaria in order for her dream for a Palestinian State to be realized. Now how do you like that Mr. Sharon: where do you think this trend will stop--at Jerusalem maybe! You have started something which will roll over you, and hurt your people immensely!

                            I dare to say that somebody (maybe his wife or mother) has been praying for Mr. Powel to be taken out of the malestrom which the Mideast is about to become; and as for Condi? She has my sympathy.

                            Talking about Israel and her tendency to stray: She--along with my well-taken-care-of, three-year-old grandson--remind me of a tendency in human behavior.

                            It does appear to me, that sin has affected the human personality to such a degree, that whenever a child--or a nation--gets the best from a parent (or from God in the case of Israel), that instead of being gratefully responsive, as one would expect, the opposite is often the case.

                            I have also seen the other side of the coin, where an individual--or nation--which was consumed with simply keeping body and soul together in its "youth," so to speak, very often ends up well disciplined and grateful.

                            I guess Israel was--and still is--a good example of a nation who has had it so good, and has responded as sinners very often do.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                              Dear ZionGene: I also saw the media coverage of Condi's comments re "contiguity" etc. There will be nothing short of the Barak offer at Camp David for this new Arab state-the entire west bank and Gaza with some minor tradeoffs. The whole thing is building huge political momentum.

                              My Orthodox Jewish doctor believes much of the current woes in the country of Israel have resulted from the leadership of the country discounting/explaining away the obvious and direct interventions of God in the 1948, 1967, 1973 wars. What were in fact miracles have now been explained as superior tactics, better leadership etc. I agreed with his assessment that the fundamental problem is spiritual. I did however stop short of asking why he still lived on this side of the ocean!

                              In November when I was in Israel, I attended a function where a well known Christian evangelist was present. He was very familiar with the history of the country and spoke at length about the miracles that Israel has experienced in its recent past. So I asked him what about the settlements in light of Ezekiel 36. Do you know what this man said..."Well you know we should not be messing in the internal affairs of another country" I could not believe my ears after the previous comments. I then asked him "What if our country ends up being part of the implementation of a Palestinian state in direct opposition to God's stated will, and as a result we are judged severely?" He said "Time will tell"

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                              • #30
                                Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                                Yes HSB, I can sympathize with the tendency of non-Jewish folks to undertake to undermine the integrity and influence of The God Of Israel in the determination of human events, and of His ability to make His will known.

                                I heard this graduate of a so-called Ivy League Christian school in New York parroting claims, such as that the Gospel Of John—with its telling of events highlighting the divine infinite origin of Jesus Christ—was the result of fabricating the record by later Church Father; or that Matthew 24 was in no way predictive, but was composed after the Fall Of Jerusalem by Church Fathers. BUT, the Old Testament is cut up in the same way, and much Jewish scholarship has followed the trend Here is a popular example

                                How could the first part of the Book of Isaiah have been written by the same author as that beyond Chapter 40, if the introduction to the first part begins with, "The vision of Isaiah, the son of Amoz, which he saw...in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, and Hezekiah...?" They lived many hundreds of years before Christ, and "we scholars" know that Cyrus, who was referred to in later chapters of Isaiah, did not live that early; and we also know that nobody could outline the career--include calling his name--of a man centuries before he was born: therefore the claim that the whole of Isaiah was written by one man, is simply the result of ignorance and poor scholarship. And the best that can be said of Isaiah’s predictive claims (including the import of a passage like Isaiah 53), is that they are a pious frauds--although well-meaning. (But, since the discovery in the Dead Sea Scrolls of one unabridged copy of Isaiah—with the same introduction—one would have thought that would have been the end of the matter; but no, the silly nonsense goes on!)

                                But: to get back to present-day Israelis, and their belittling of the hand of God in events which are fairly recent, and nearly as powerful as the crossing of the Red Sea.

                                Do the Jews know that this elimination of the concept of God literally operating in the affairs of men—as was first advanced by errant so-called Christian scholarship—is exactly what the Nazis latched onto, and took it a step further to its bloody conclusion, and said that all the claims about God having spoken in the Torah was deliberate trickery and fabrication by evil Jews? HSB, there is related question arising in my mind which I hate to think about. Was there a parallel trend of unbelief among intellectual Jews in Europe, during the early decades of the last century, and just before the terror of the 1930’s and 40’s?

                                I wonder if unbelieving Jews in Israel know what they are setting themselves up for? If I know anything of how God operates, they can expect that He will at least “scare the daylights” out of them, until such time that He makes His presence, and mind, and will “perfectly clear,” and accepted, to and by all concerned. And this may include abandonnment of Israel to its own, and the nations's devices for an extended period of time

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