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  • #31
    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

    Hello, All...

    I, too, have been away from the computer (and indeed most secular news) for several days. WOW, this thread gets more interesting every time I see it.

    As I said very early on, I'm not at all a prophesy scholar, just an observer. And I note with some alarm, an article in Debka, dated today, about Condi, her views, and her upcoming trip to Egypt. The article is quoted in another thread here.

    I guess, HSB, that the next very few months (or perhaps only weeks) will distill the essence of whether we see God do some serious head-bashing, or whether we need to kick back, close our books, and go to the movies. If my nose is right, what (Debka said that) Condi said portends the US getting directly involved in this nasty business. It saddens me deeply. I've gone back and read all of the scriptures cited here. Clearly, if your scenario is correct, the coallition that implements the evacuation of the West Bank is in for some serious headache. Unfortunately, HSB, just as clearly, your scenario makes all the sense in the world.

    I think I'll make a little trip in the next 3 or 4 weeks to make sure my hidey-hole is still dry and take a few things down to add to the cache!

    Seriously, tho, this thread is absolutely intriguing. So, finally, HSB, give me your thoughts on exactly what you think God will do to those forces (and nations that send them) in terms of punishment. Famine, natural disaster, war w/ each other? What? In addition to earthquakes in Israel, that is.

    PlumBob
    Last edited by PlumBob; 02-02-2005, 10:11 PM.
    ". . . for the time has come for you to awaken from your slumber. . ." Romans 13:11

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    • #32
      Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

      Dear PlumBob: since you asked I will lay out a scenario. It will be based on existing world realities and reasonable projections into the future. (ie it avoids the notion that little green men from Mars are involved in any way)

      Ezekiel 36 outlines God's plan to restore the Jews to the "mountains of Israel" That as we know is the West Bank, not the coastal plain where Tel Aviv is located. God also speaks to actions to show His power and righteousness to the nations. Ezekiel 36 is immediately followed by "the rest of the story" in Ezekiel 37-39, culminating in the destruction of Gog, his military coalition forces and his country as well. During the cold war writers made a lot of book sales linking MaGog with Russia. Thus the coaition would be Russian invasion force with Muslim allies. There are some major weaknesses in this theory in my opinion, not the least of which would be the fact that USA would allow a large Russian force to position itself near the oil fields of the Middle East (Hey sounds a lot like American foreign policy).

      America has been blessed by God. IMHO it is the greatest nation that has existed in history. But the tide has turned as they say. The economic future is grim, with a growing dependence on foreign oil, astronomical trade deficits with the world, especially Asis etc. However America holds a strong trump card in its military machine. It has strategic "reach" and "punch". Look to see both of these characteristics employed more frequently. In the oil world China's demands are growing, so there will be major collisions coming re supply. Unlike Europe where the price of gasoline basically rations the resource, there has been almost no attempt to "get off oil" over here. So we have a motive (oil) and we have a means (military action). Right now there is a large contingent of troops in Iraq. The newly elected government will want to fast track them leaving asap. Of course not all would leave. The country has to remain solidly onside with US policy and more importantly send its oil this way. Butr it will be important to keep a large military force positioned in the Middle East to protect the supply of oil, and deny it to others (ie China) in the near future.

      I believe the "hook in the jaws" will be implementation of a two state system in Israel. The IDF will not abide widespread refusals of its soldiers to uproot settlements. In order to have "peace" however that will have to occur. Look for a broad international coalition of the willing to assist. Now this coalition will not be balanced numerically. It will be about 95% American effort, just like "Desert storm" and the Second Gulf War in Iraq. What is especially interesting is that America is led by a "war president" with the name George. I have posted elsewhere that in many of the local Middle East/Black Sea languages George is equivalent to Gog. And he wants to leave a legacy of "fixing" the problem in Israel in this his second and final term. (PS I have nothing personal against the president at all; I'd just sleep a little easier if his name was Harry or Frank). So the "hook" is the peace deal implementation, perhaps even with the begging of the government of Israel to come in, but the real motive in participation will be oil interests. I believe that is why Sheba and Dedan (=modern Saudi Arabia) and the Merchants of Tarshish and pups (=Europe) utter a protest. They see massive deployment of US milirtary assets, and smell a rat. Of course they are powerless to prevent a seizure of Saudi Oil. (note: I'm sure you are aware that even Henry Kissinger wrote a scenario advocating seizure of Saudi oilfields years ago under a pseudoname.

      The Hebrew language is amazing. If you study the actual Hebrew account relating to Gog, you will see that there is no "invasion", rather he simply shows up (=deploys). His force arrives not on "horses" but literally by "fast flight". Sounds like aircraft to me. We could go on.

      All of this runs diametriaclly opposed to God's stated will in Ezekiel 36. Suffice it to say that God Himself sends massive earthquakes through the mountains of Israel (west bank area) and destroys the entire military intervention force. There is even some shooting at each other involved. I'm sure that will make the Muslims less than happy campers. At any rate this whole force gets liquidated. Realize the casualties will run likely in the hundreds of thousands. Unfortunately that is not the end of it. God then sends "fire on the coastlands" John Hagee believes that this refers to judgment on the coasts of America where about 75% of the US population lives. He thinks it will be a massive nuclear attack from Russia (after its destruction as MaGog) I don't agree with him on that last point but agree with the "coastlands explanation.

      In light of the disaster in Indonesia recently, it is entirely possible that the east coast could be struck by a massive tsunami caused by the Canary Islands mountain side slipping into the Atlantic. However there is reference to "fire" so maybe it is a series of nuclear detonations. On the west coast its easy to consider fire related to volcanic and seismic activity. At any rate the nation ceases to exist as a viable entity. That then clears the way for Europe to consolidate power and regroup the world economy.

      I think the Jews will get their Land back. Whoever is left in the arab mountain areas of Israel will run as fast as possible to abandon the region. Unfortunately the Jews will embrace a Messiah who comes in his own name (the "second shepherd" in Zechariah) who will probably assist with the rebuilding of the Temple etc. Don't worry about the Dome of the Rock- the earthquake will take out the whole thing.

      Given the economic chaos in the world, plague (pandemics) will rage as well. If you have been following all this, you will realize the first 4 seals of Revelation just got fulfilled PlumBob. And sad to say almost no one will see any of this coming. Condi Rice is now talking massive concessions to the arabs, including "contiguity" of the new state lands (I call it "condiguity"). These people do not realize that they are acting out a script that was written thousands of years ago by the prophet.

      It may be that there is a lull between the destruction of Gog's army and the destruction of Gog's country. That would permit the millions of Jews who live in America to exit the country for Israel prior to jugment. I happen to believe that this judgment will take out New York city among others, but the Jews happen to live there in large numbers (millions).

      So here is a suggested course of action. Pray that America will not be involved in this wretched 2 state solution. If it does get involved with considerable force, brace yourself for the loss of the entire military force. If that happens get out of the "coastlands" where judgment will fall. A clue to timing may be provided by the Jews in America, especially New York City. If they begin to move in large numbers and quickly, you will know that judgment follows soon after.

      I take no satisfaction in outlining this scenario. In fact the whole thing makes me literally sick!! But what I have written appears to be emerging out of the haze in fulfillment of Scriptures written a long, long time ago.

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      • #33
        Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

        Dear HSB

        Your George/Gog connection is interesting, but I am inclined to take it with a grain of salt since I have recently heard some folks even identify America with the not-too-honorable lady of Revelation 17, etc.

        If indeed Gog is George, and since the George in question has but 48 months to be around, then, if your hint is valid, America is in for some very big changes indeed in the next four years. And, since America probably has the highest percentage of born-again believers in Christ of any nation today, it is reasonable to assume that they might all be suddenly taken up, and the result of the folly of America tampering with the Holy will not impact them and their kind anywhere in the world.

        The "coastlands" factor in the Gog prophecy is very intriguing, given the fact that the recent tsunami destroyed coastal areas. But God can use any mix of "weapons" in his armory. I have often speculated for instance, as to what would happen if He allowed a volcano to break through an oil field; and furthermore, what kind of engineering on His part has kept them separate for all of this time, on the same planet. The world in in for some demonstrations of divine power-plays, when His fury will "come up in His face," over Gog's trespass in the Holy Land.

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        • #34
          Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

          Thank you, HSB, for sharing this scenerio. Quite interesting. If the times prove this to be true, we are farther along and prophecy plays out in a quicker fashion than in other views.
          It brings no joy to my heart for the US to be heading against God, but the word says "all nations are against Israel" and that means all .

          Could it be that the US 'thinks' it is doing Israel a favor..by implementing this two state system (Israel and Palestine)..not unlike Judas sought to bring Jesus into His role as national leader for Israel against Roman occupation?
          'there is a way that seems right unto men but the end there of is death and hell...'




          ps, my firstborn son is in the army..should you be right, he could be in this very action..

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          • #35
            Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

            Dear Zion Gene and Jeanie: thanks for the comments.
            ZionGene: re "interesting, but I am inclined to take it with a grain of salt" I say "aren't we supposed to be salt LOL. I hope that the scenario I described turns out to be totally wrong...but I don't think so. I ask you to write up a scenario that addresses the current and near future geopolitical stew that also squares with prophecy. For starters, I find it interesting that NOBODY has a theory about who Gog is. I mean who carries that name? I guess one could say "no one knows until somebody just shows up with that name and is in a position of major world power". I'm saying we have such a person presently as CEO of the most powerful nation in the history of the world. Also, explain to me why the USA would sit on the sidelines and let some other power basically seize the middle east oil in direct confrontation with American economic needs. Thirdly, why is there no reference to any opposition to Gog coming from Israel. All the opposition comes from God Almighty. Fourthly, we all know a two state solution is literally on the drawing boards right now. If it gets implemented than put the books away, because the mountains of Israel will actually have become the mountains of Abbas. Tell me a scenario where the two state piece fits in successfully.

            I HATE my outline and I am praying AGAINST it's fulfillment, but every passing day I feel it drawing closer to actual realization.

            ZionGene I was intrigued by the possibility of volcanic activity occuring near oil deposits. Sounds a lot like the old "fire and brimstone".

            Dear Jeannie: You are obviously a mother who loves her children and country dearly. I pray that God will keep all of your loved ones safe in the days ahead!! Regarding military action in Israel I wonder if foreign (in many cases Christian) soldiers will be willing to do what the IDF soldiers clearly rebel at..the thought of dragging Jewish settlers out of their homes.
            Last edited by HSB; 02-03-2005, 03:05 PM.

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            • #36
              Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

              Jeannie: sorry I did not comment on your question: Could it be that the US 'thinks' it is doing Israel a favor..by implementing this two state system (Israel and Palestine).. I think this will be very much the case. Let's face it, in 1967 Israel was prepared to stay out of the west bank if Jordan did not join in the war. After the war was over the area became an immense political headache. The arabs were still there in large numbers (over 1 million) Israel did not want to police this large crowd. That is why they created a series of semi-autonomous regions so arabs could look after themselves. It also explains why Israel never moved to annex the land like Jordan had done in 1949. All the arabs would have become Israeli citizens with voting rights!!

              To create "facts on the ground" that would really stand up would have required a couple of extra million Jews from say New York city to move in. That never happened in sizable amounts. So we have a large arab population and a much smaller Jewish presence in this disputed area. In terms of politics in Israel there are two main solitudes. The folks who typically live along the coastal plain would be happy to see the arabs get their own state and get on with their lives. They tend to be more secular in outlook. Many people honestly believe that the only hope for the future is a peace deal to create two states west of the Jordan River -a Jewish one and a Palestinian arab one. I think the US government now shares that viewpoint.

              An interesting little digression here: my daughter played soccer for many years. On the team was a girl of German ancestry. I often spoke with her father. One day we chatted about the second world war. He says he had only vague memories. His family lived in the Sudetenland (part of the Czech republic now) he said right after the war ended, Czechs showed up at their house and said they had 24 hours to get out of the house and town. If they were still there after 24 hours the house would be burned down with them in it. Needless to say they collected a few possessions and left. Afterall, Germany lost its war. The same can be said to have occured many times over in west Poland. It originally was a major part of Germany, until after the war. You see there is a rule of common law that says, in a defensive war the spoils go to the winner (owing to the aggression) That applies everywhere except Israel. It does not matter how many times the arabs lose their aggressive wars, they still claim righteous high ground positions. (in this case the "high ground" just happens to be the high ground of the West Bank)

              The more Orthodox Israelis live in the hill country (Jerusalem and the settlements) They see what is unfolding in terms of God's redemptive plan for the nation. It is this group that will spit on cash offers to relocate. They will need to be dragged out of their houses. All the while they will be crying out to God to show Himself and honor His Name and Word. WHAT IF HE DOES???
              Last edited by HSB; 02-03-2005, 09:17 PM.

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              • #37
                Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                The point of possible ignorance on our leaders' part was raised.

                This reminds me of what Jesus said that Abraham said to the rich man in hell.

                The rich man said that his four brothers back in the land of the living would repent if someone went back from the dead to warn them. Abraham's response was "No? They have Moses and the prophets: let them hear them. For if they hear not them, neither will they be persuaded, though on did rise from the dead." And I would not be surprised if these same four brothers were around, when the rumor of the resurrection of Christ spread abroad, and that they dismissed the story and the message.

                And as far as our leaders in our nation are concerned: you mean to tell me that they have not heard, from some or the other source or media--not to speak of having it laid out in the Book upon which most of them swore into office--that God complained bitterly against those who would "part" His land?

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                • #38
                  Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                  Originally posted by ZionGene
                  you mean to tell me that they have not heard, from some or the other source or media--not to speak of having it laid out in the Book upon which most of them swore into office--that God complained bitterly against those who would "part" His land?
                  Unfortunately, ZionGene, that's very close to the case. The Bible isn't real to most people. It's a fairy tale, or something surreal. To most people, even to many who profess to be 'Christian' whatever the Bible might say, they don't see it as touching their lives.

                  John 12:37-40 "All these God-signs he had given them and they still didn't get it, still wouldn't trust him. This proved that the prophet Isaiah was right: God, who believed what we preached? Who recognized God's arm, outstretched and ready to act? First they wouldn't believe, then they couldn't--again, just as Isaiah said: Their eyes are blinded, their hearts are hardened, so that they wouldn't see with their eyes and perceive with their hearts, and turn to me, God, so I could heal them."
                  The Message

                  What's the old saying, power courrupts, and total power corrupts totally? or something like that. Clearly the concept of "corrupt" isn't exactly correct for this context, but the thought still is that if it doesn't fit into their worldview, it must not be real. Politicos get into power mode, and they simply don't see anything else. Human nature, no doubt. And along that same thought, Jeanie, I think you are right on the mark. Because it makes US politicos feel good, to "help" Israel, then it must be right - w/o ever considering the spiritual implications.

                  HSB, back to something you said several posts back - the US west coast is vulnerable from N Korea nukes now. At least Seattle, Portland, Anchorage, and Valdez, but possibly LA and San Diego, too. There goes the pacific fleet bases. Add New York and that area, Savannah, Miami, New Orleans, and Houston/Galveston, and you've got the US shipping shut down. Period.

                  And so, with that as the context, I'll just post an open note to President Bush - trusting that someone in the FBI or NSA is reading along w/ us and would be so kind as to pass this on to him. Sir, make no mistake, I voted for you. But I would ask you to be very careful and very thoughtful in what you do, and particularly in what you let others do on your behalf, in this middle-east matter. Clearly, this thread outlines a scenario that could be disasterous to our country. If God gives you one tiny little heart-twitch that maybe He wants the US to stay out of this matter, please seek further counsel before you act. I'm sure your computer guys can find one of us here, and we can talk further.
                  PlumBob

                  That being said, I really do think that this is all part of a much broader plan, and probably is immutable anyway.
                  ". . . for the time has come for you to awaken from your slumber. . ." Romans 13:11

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                    I guess the fact of the matter is, that all human beings, because of their fallen state, CANNOT understand God when He speaks, unless He enables them through the Holy Spirit. And that goes for Ezekiel 36 and all the rest

                    One doctrine which most people find hard to accept, is the one which says that, left alone by God, we are all utterly depraved. And this is particularly true as it relates to the perception of truth, and the will of God

                    I am reminded of a question which Jesus put to the Pharisees: "Why can you not understand my speech?" It was as if He was saying, "I dare to say that you do not know why?" But we who are in Christ now--and remember what it was like before then--know why. The answer is that some people are given "ears to hear," by God.

                    How else can you explain that Judas was in the immediate company of Jesus for approximately three and a half year, but hardly understood anything which Jesus said? The human mind, unless assisted by the Holy Spirit, cannot understand God, neither the scripture; and being educated, or sophisticated, or articulate does not change that condition in the least.

                    What the people in Washington need is a prophet--not another seasoned diplomat! We are about to learn first hand that there is a certain price to be paid for "separating Church from State," in the way that the concept is normally understood and interpreted. Ask Eisenhower! He looked to Jean Dixon for much guidance, and thereby indicated that leaders of nations have had to seek guidance from above at certain points. What we are trying to determine today without God is simply unworkable. And I hope that the President of the United keeps to a regular schedule of a private devotional and prayer life, wherin he reads the Bible

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                    • #40
                      Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                      It is interesting to note that societies ancient and modern, have recognized the need for a link to heaven. A few examples will suffice to make the point.

                      Balaam certainly lacked full legitimacy as a prophet, yet he was consulted by a leading nation of his time, to divine a proper relationship and posture vis-a-vis Israel. Then there were the Greeks: and we may be sure that more than nonsense emenated from the Oracle at Delphi! It is also significant that even Alexander the Great was smart enough to consul the Jewish High Priest, as he stood poised to take Jerusalem by storm, but was disuaded not to do so. But the leader who intrigues me the most in regard to obtaining divine guidance, was Cyrus Emperor of Persia, who facilited the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. He certainly must have had a prophet somewhere, since God speaks of him as "...though thou knowest me not."
                      Then there is the relatively recent example in the history of our British cousins, which even they seem to have forgotten.

                      During the early stages of the World War II, Germany was driving all before her, including the British army in Europe. And 300000 British troops had retreated before the relentless attacks of the German Panza tanks, and Luftwafte airforce. The British soldiers ran west and were trapped on the beaches of Belgium, hoping for rescue by the British ragtag navy. The most they could do to protect themselves, was to stand zigzag on the sands at Dunkirk, and hope to make themselves a harder target of the German airforce.

                      Then, the King of England and the Archbishop of Canterbury went to the Cathedral, and begged the Almighty to save the men stranded on the beaches, and to do something to help the small boats from across the channel, and to help them sneak in and rescue the men in small groups from off the beaches.

                      Suddenly, a dense fog descended on the beaches, and since radar was not yet invented, the fog made it difficult for the German airforce to target the men below.

                      I was telling this story in West Africa on one occasion, when, after I had preached, an English lady came up to me and informed me that not only did a dense fog inhibit the killing of the English men from above, but that God also made the sea to be as smooth as glass, thereby facilitating the extrication of the men from the beaches, to the safety of home twenty-two miles away

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                      • #41
                        Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                        ZionGene, that's a facinating story about WW2. Thanks for sharing it!

                        It seems that God may be intervening in our current situation, too -

                        There was an article about Condi and her present trip to the other side of the pond, today on Fox. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,146361,00.html
                        quoted in part here.

                        'En route to London on Thursday, Rice indicated the United States may take a back seat for now in the international effort to bring Israel and the Palestinians closer to a lasting peace.

                        Rice said she does not plan to attend next week's Middle East summit meeting in Egypt, although she will be close by for talks in Jerusalem and the West Bank.

                        "Not every effort has to be an American effort," Rice said. "It is extremely important that the parties themselves are taking responsibility. It is extremely important that the regional actors are taking responsibility."'

                        Hopefully the US will keep its nose out of this affair. I think that I'll give the credit to God, and President Bush - but will recognize that perhaps our NSA gals and guys picked up this thread last nite and pushed it up to 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. over night - If so, great job
                        ". . . for the time has come for you to awaken from your slumber. . ." Romans 13:11

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                          PlumBob: this is encouraging news. I'm impressed that Condi does not feel the need to be front and center and "prove" anything in the new job. Let's hope, and pray, that America backs out of this 2 state affair. Let somebody else play the lead role. More importantly let's pray that we will all understand and work to support God's will being done in Israel and our own country! Amen

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Paratroopers

                            Originally posted by HSB
                            Be careful when reading English translations of Hebrew. Often the translator chooses a convenient word that makes sense but is not necessarily accurate. The Hebrew simply says that Gog and the military force "shows up". perhaps a more accurate English word would involve "deployment". That could mean "invasion" but does not necessarily mean that. Simply a large military force arrives in Israel. Many people have imagined that the horde of Russia will come riding in on horses (a lot of translations say that horses are involved) The Hebrew uses a word that is also translated "crane"..yes that is right -the bird. Now how could a crane and a horse be accurate translations of the same concept...simply because the Hebrew root word means "quick flight". Up until recently soldiers in "quick flight" must have been riding horses but realize a Jumbo Jet or a troop helicopter are EQUALLY CREDIBLE translations. What a marvelous language Hebrew is!!!
                            The Hebrew word ‘soos’ [5483] is from an unused root meaning to skip (properly for joy); a horse (as leaping); also a swallow (from its rapid flight):—crane, horse ([-back, -hoof]).

                            Ezekiel 38:9 says, “Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.”

                            Horses do not ascend, airplanes do. This sounds like a paratrooper invasion to me.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                              This is a great discussion! Lots of good opinions, etc. The paratrooper idea rings strongly with me--especially since we know there are tunnels from Egypt running below the West Bank where they have been smuggling arms and explosives. I've often thought that dear John must have been overwhelmed at how to describe what he saw in the visions that comprise Revelations--a 1st century man looking at what is probably 21st century stuff with all the high tech military equipment and the way troops dress for battle now! Exciting times to be alive!

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Ezekiel 36 and the Mountains of Israel.

                                HSB, and everyone....

                                Israel doesn't seem to be very impressed w/ the Conditiguous palestinian state concept. I found an interesting Israeli view at the following url. Linked to it from Raiders.

                                http://www.jewishworldreview.com/020...inter_friendly

                                It's fairly lengthy, so you can go look at your leisure.

                                Obviously, it's way too early in the game to hold our breath.
                                ". . . for the time has come for you to awaken from your slumber. . ." Romans 13:11

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